Running Mac OS 10.4 Tiger with SheepShaver in Snow Leopard

About SheepShaver, a PPC Mac emulator for Windows, MacOS X, and Linux that can run System 7.5.3 to MacOS 9.0.4.

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Chuck
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Running Mac OS 10.4 Tiger with SheepShaver in Snow Leopard

Post by Chuck »

Greetings All,

I've been using SS 2.4 to run OS9 on an Intel Mac Mini running OS 10.6.8 Snow Leopard. I use SS exclusively to use HyperCard. In a post some time back I mentioned problems I've had copying jpeg image files into HyperCard. I can paste text into HyperCard directly from the OS 10.6 side, but for some reason this doesn't work with image files. I've tried moving the image files into SS through the Unix folder, opening them in the default Quicktime graphic program and then pasting them into Hypercard. But I only get the general shadows of the image and most detail is lost. I've tried other OS9 image programs to no avail.
I have a Power PC PowerBook G4 17" running 10.4.8 Tiger and can paste files directly into HyperCard, of course, with no loss of detail (except color, since the HC environment is B/W.) The 10.4 install disks for the PowerBook are specific to the machine, but I wonder if there is a way I could use either these PowerBook disks or the generic 10.6 Tiger disks (that install on the old iMac and some other Power PC Macs) in order to run Mac OS 10.6.8 Tiger with SS on my Intel Mac running OS 10.6.8 Snow Leopard (which I prefer to the more recent Mac OSs). If that is possible, I wonder if it might solve the image problem. I apologize in advance if this question has been answered already.

Regards,
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Cat_7
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Re: Running Mac OS 10.4 Tiger with SheepShaver in Snow Leopa

Post by Cat_7 »

Hi,

I'm a bit confused by your naming/numbering: e.g., "the generic 10.6 Tiger disks" do not exist.
You want to run the Tiger PPC version on your Snow Leopard Intel Mac by using SheepShaver? That won't be possible, SheepShaver only runs up to 9.0.4. To run Tiger PPC, you would need to install Tiger PPC using Qemu on your Snow Leopard machine. That emulation will be rather slow, and several niceties that SheepShaver provides will not be available. Such as copy/paste directly from host to guest. File exchange, like with the Unix disk, however, is easy on a Mac host.

Qemu is command line driven, so you would need some proficiency with that.

There is only one problem: Our current Qemu builds do not run on Snow Leopard. I might be able to build you a one-off version of Qemu that runs on Snow Leopard, but it takes some tinkering. That means I will not be providing newer versions when Qemu gets updates.

Read up what is required to run Qemu: https://www.emaculation.com/doku.php/pp ... mu-for-osx
If you think you want to try, I'll see what I can do.

Best,
Cat_7

Best,
Cat_7
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24bit
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Re: Running Mac OS 10.4 Tiger with SheepShaver in Snow Leopa

Post by 24bit »

Mike Tom Tom over at Macintoshgarden just recently downgraded his 10.6.8 Mac Mini to 10.4.8 Tiger.
Depending on your hardware, Tiger is an option when you own a GMA 950 Mac Mini.
Mike will be glad to help methinks, when you care starting a new thread at Macintoshgarden - if that would meet your demands, that is.

You may also run 10.4 Tiger Server (or 10.5 Leopard Server) in VMWare Fusion on your 10.6 Intel machine, if you prefer having 10.6, 10.4 and SheepShaver side by side.
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adespoton
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Re: Running Mac OS 10.4 Tiger with SheepShaver in Snow Leopa

Post by adespoton »

It seems like the main goal here is to import graphics into HyperCard. To do this, you need to save the images in a format HyperCard understands on the host side... as a PICT bitmap or MacPaint image, for instance.

You can do this using Preview on 10.6 by holding the option key while selecting Save As.

Save in an image format that existed in 1987 and you’ll be fine. I recommend converting to dithered black and white right then before you transfer the file.
Chuck
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Re: Running Mac OS 10.4 Tiger with SheepShaver in Snow Leopa

Post by Chuck »

>Cat_7, So running Tiger with SheepShaver isn't possible. Okay. That's what I needed to know.

>Hi 24bit, I didn't know you could downgrade a 10.6.8 Mac Mini to 10.4.8. I guess the idea is to be able to keep using Tiger but with a hardware solution rather than a software solution with emulation? It would be interesting to know more about that.

>adespoton, Taking your suggestion about the format, I found that if I save the images in png (rather than giff), transfer them to SheepShaver via the Unix folder, open them in Picture Viewer and then copy/paste them into HyperCard, there's no loss of detail. So that solves the problem. Don't know why I never tried that before. :roll:

Many thanks for all the comments.
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adespoton
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Re: Running Mac OS 10.4 Tiger with SheepShaver in Snow Leopa

Post by adespoton »

I have a PPC Mini running 10.4.11 precisely so I can avoid a lot of these issues :) G4 Minis are relatively cheap these days and still available, and a Mini running 10.4.11 (and dual booting into the hacked version of 9.2.2) will run almost all pre-Intel software written for Macs :)
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Re: Running Mac OS 10.4 Tiger with SheepShaver in Snow Leopa

Post by McHargue »

Cat_7 wrote: You want to run the Tiger PPC version on your Snow Leopard Intel Mac by using SheepShaver? That won't be possible, SheepShaver only runs up to 9.0.4. To run Tiger PPC, you would need to install Tiger PPC using Qemu on your Snow Leopard machine. That emulation will be rather slow, and several niceties that SheepShaver provides will not be available. Such as copy/paste directly from host to guest. File exchange, like with the Unix disk, however, is easy on a Mac host.
Hello,

Apologies if this has been asked and answered (I've tried searching for other threads that might illuminate). I am wondering what the technical issues or differences from Qemu are that prevents SheepShaver from hosting anything beyond 9.0.4--including 10.x PowerPC versions? The second part of the question is just how "slow" (and stable) is Qemu? I'd be running it on an iMac Pro maxed out with cores and an SSD. Is it possible that the emulated PPC machine would be at least as fast as, say, a G4 Mac mini?

Please don't take my inquiry as disrespectful to the enormous work that must have gone into bringing these emulators to the fore. I'm just trying to shore-up a lot of legacy software without deploying redundant hardware everywhere (which I have done in the past).

Regards and thanks,

Bill.
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Cat_7
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Re: Running Mac OS 10.4 Tiger with SheepShaver in Snow Leopa

Post by Cat_7 »

I am wondering what the technical issues or differences from Qemu are that prevents SheepShaver from hosting anything beyond 9.0.4--including 10.x PowerPC versions? The second part of the question is just how "slow" (and stable) is Qemu? I'd be running it on an iMac Pro maxed out with cores and an SSD. Is it possible that the emulated PPC machine would be at least as fast as, say, a G4 Mac mini?
SheepShaver does not emulate a memory management unit (MMU). That piece of hardware became compulsory after 9.0.4, so SheepShaver cannot run them. it was a design decision, as SheepShaver woulds become much less speedy.

You see some of the effects of that in Qemu.
Qemu still emulates 9.x at considerable speed. Think 1.7 x a G3 300 for processor and ~ 0.6 times for floating point arithmatic. (all also depending on your host).
Qemu emulating a PowerMac uses only one core on a host.

Qemu is much more reliable compared to SheepShaver, but has less features.
Emulating from 10.0 to 10.5 gets slower from version to version as the hardware demands increased over time while qemu does not get faster.

Usability depends a bit on what you need to run. Games run OK in 9.0, but start to suffer in OSX, also because no accelerated graphics are available. If you depend on sound to work that might be an issue.

Give it a try, it is not that difficult to run, and help is available from our guides and members.

Best,
Cat_7
McHargue
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Re: Running Mac OS 10.4 Tiger with SheepShaver in Snow Leopa

Post by McHargue »

Cat_7 wrote:Usability depends a bit on what you need to run. Games run OK in 9.0, but start to suffer in OSX, also because no accelerated graphics are available. If you depend on sound to work that might be an issue.

Give it a try, it is not that difficult to run, and help is available from our guides and members.
I'm sold. No fancy graphics to render, nor games, nor sounds. Just a legacy FileMaker Pro 6 database and a custom RealBASIC program from 16 years ago. I will need Ethernet and TCP/IP network connectivity though.

Another application I have is a 4D client-server database from 28 years ago! Still running through a G3 Mac OS 8.5 as server, and proxy Mac minis running Mac OSX 10.4 + Classic as clients screen-shared to user's Intel Macs.

Time to become proficient in Qemu deployment. Thank you very much for the detailed explanation.

Bill.
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Cat_7
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Re: Running Mac OS 10.4 Tiger with SheepShaver in Snow Leopa

Post by Cat_7 »

See our guide to setting up Qemu here:
https://www.emaculation.com/doku.php/pp ... mu-for-osx
If you need the database to be available over the network (or any other appletalk/tcp-ip-based services), you probably need to run tap networking with Qemu. A section of the guide deals with that.

Best,
Cat_7
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adespoton
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Re: Running Mac OS 10.4 Tiger with SheepShaver in Snow Leopa

Post by adespoton »

Just a reminder that QEmu can only emulate Mac OS 9.0.4 and up (and Mac OS X Server 1.2v3 with a few hacky tweaks). So you'll need to migrate your 8.5 server setup to 9.x; otherwise you need to use SheepShaver which is currently the only emulator that will run 8.5.

Also, probably worth upgrading that G3 Mac to 8.6, or downgrade it to 8.1; 8.5 has a number of bugs, and 8.5.1 only fixes some of them. 8.6 is one of the most solid Classic Mac OS versions available; 9.x was all about OS X compatibility.
McHargue
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Re: Running Mac OS 10.4 Tiger with SheepShaver in Snow Leopa

Post by McHargue »

adespoton wrote:Just a reminder that QEmu can only emulate Mac OS 9.0.4 and up (and Mac OS X Server 1.2v3 with a few hacky tweaks). So you'll need to migrate your 8.5 server setup to 9.x; otherwise you need to use SheepShaver which is currently the only emulator that will run 8.5.

Also, probably worth upgrading that G3 Mac to 8.6, or downgrade it to 8.1; 8.5 has a number of bugs, and 8.5.1 only fixes some of them. 8.6 is one of the most solid Classic Mac OS versions available; 9.x was all about OS X compatibility.
All good advice, except in my case...

4D Server will only run up to Mac OS 8.5, not 8.6 (ugh!), so I planned to run SheepShaver for the server. Qeum perhaps on the client (Intel) iMacs to run 9.2 which is what the current 4D Client instances are running. Actually, I don't recall if there is a standalone Mac OS 9.2 since I've been running it under Classic all these years. If the 4D Client will run under 9.0 then I'd deploy SheepShaver for everything in this application.

This 4D Client/Server project is not nearly as immediate as the OSX 10.4 on Intel via Qemu application.

Thanks,

Bill.
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