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PostPosted: Fri Sep 19, 2014 1:00 am 
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emendelson wrote:
Everything in your OS X build works exactly as you says it works! All the confusion earlier was a problem of user-ignorance and user-confusion!

I hope your slurp implementation gets into pruten's build in some form. Meanwhile: next question: will it be possible to use a web browser before too long?


Cool! I don't see why not.. I use a crappy old version of Lynx, but mostly because I know it'll build on 4.3 BSD so it'll build on almost anything (as long as there is a gcc 2.5.7 at least..) I tried Netscape 4 but that crashed out pretty hard. I guess Netscape 3 may work. When I ran A/UX on a Quadra 950 I forget what I used, but it was a 68040 so newer things didn't complain. I just remember I enjoyed having MS Office, and a real Unix.. SoftPC also made it super cool, although the giant tower was a nice touch.

I've been trying to get ncftp to work but it's having some weird issues about running in passive mode.

I'm just amazed that Shoebill works as well as it does!

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 19, 2014 1:06 am 
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emendelson wrote:
Wait - I was wrong! Neozeed's OS X build does connect to the internet! I simply was looking in the wrong places.

Ping doesn't work, but lynx connects to my ISP's page that says "You entered an unknown web address etc." (I can't seem to figure out how to get Lynx to connect to any other web site.) wget will download a web page. irc works exactly as neozeed says it does.

So, yes! Neozeed has got user-space networking working under OS X. Now to figure out how to get a graphical web browser working - and maybe how to get ping working, just to see it in action...


In Lynx It's shift G to go to a new location... :mrgreen:

Or just say it on the cli...

Code:
lynx http://www.thisawesomesite.com/somerandompath


you get the idea.

I set the irc to default to chat.taucher.net .. I used to hang on on #bsd ages ago. Maybe I will again, I dont know.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 19, 2014 1:25 am 
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adespoton wrote:


Unfortunately this code seems to rely on dlopen for using real dynamic libraries, which A/UX doesn't support... :sad:

Which Jim Jagielski mentions. I used to run an ancient abermud on 4.3 BSD, so there is always that.

This code is all dated from 2012, if you have something far more ancient, then let me know as I bet that'll work better....

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 19, 2014 2:03 am 
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neozeed wrote:

In Lynx It's shift G to go to a new location... :mrgreen:

Or just say it on the cli...

Code:
lynx http://www.thisawesomesite.com/somerandompath


you get the idea.

I set the irc to default to chat.taucher.net .. I used to hang on on #bsd ages ago. Maybe I will again, I dont know.


Getting closer. I can use lynx to open a web page when I access it via its IP address:

lynx http://123.45.67.89

but I can't get name-serving to work. I've added my router address and the Google dns service (8.8.8.8). No luck either way.

You said that Tun/Tap gives full IP access, but, with Tun/Tap, I can't figure out how to do anything but ping the host. Maybe someone can advise on that? (Or probably I should just shut up for a while and go back to work on the wrapper...)


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 19, 2014 2:22 am 
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emendelson wrote:
open a web page when I access it via its IP address:

lynx http://123.45.67.89


Ok, we know the stack works then.

what is your /etc/resolv.conf ?

Image

I hate to say it works on my mac just fine, but ... :mrgreen:

Also I know it's dreadfully slow at times. Its oddly enough faster for me to uuencode a binary and paste it to A/UX than to use lynx or wget. Also it's a bit touchy and will crash if you send more than 5MB at a time... I haven't even looked into why. Also another thing is that if the ethernet goes to sleep on you I couldn't wake it up.. So I now nohup a ping process to keep the ethernet alive so my 'server' is up more often.


In other news I found the source code to dgd-1.2, which doesn't rely on dlopen. But I have no idea what Im doing with that thing.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 19, 2014 2:30 am 
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neozeed wrote:
what is your /etc/resolv.conf ?
I hate to say it works on my mac just fine, but ... :mrgreen:


Don't spend any more time on this. I wonder if the problem is that I've got a wireless Mac?

Anyway, here's my resolv.conf and a telnet session open:

Image

But now it's time to get some sleep... Thanks again for getting this working as well as it does, even if it doesn't work as well on some machines as on others...


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 19, 2014 5:20 am 
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neozeed wrote:
Also it's a bit touchy and will crash if you send more than 5MB at a time... I haven't even looked into why. Also another thing is that if the ethernet goes to sleep on you I couldn't wake it up.. So I now nohup a ping process to keep the ethernet alive so my 'server' is up more often.


In other news I found the source code to dgd-1.2, which doesn't rely on dlopen. But I have no idea what Im doing with that thing.


The 5MB issue would be to do with socket handling, which in A/UX days wasn't expecting large buffers. Adjusting your TCP windows to a smaller value might help.

For DGD, you did exactly what I was going to suggest -- I used 1.2, and while I eventually moved to 1.3, but wrote most of my mudlib code under 1.2 and didn't use all the new 1.3 features that much.

Coming from abermud it could be really disconcerting, but you get a whole bunch more toolkit with DGD -- although the default inline text editor is ed :D

There's nothing quite so fulfilling as live-updating running code and seeing it work for the next person who logs in, with the main data persistent across the new build and everyone able to interact :)


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 19, 2014 6:01 am 
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adespoton wrote:
neozeed wrote:
Also it's a bit touchy and will crash if you send more than 5MB at a time... I haven't even looked into why. Also another thing is that if the ethernet goes to sleep on you I couldn't wake it up.. So I now nohup a ping process to keep the ethernet alive so my 'server' is up more often.


In other news I found the source code to dgd-1.2, which doesn't rely on dlopen. But I have no idea what Im doing with that thing.


The 5MB issue would be to do with socket handling, which in A/UX days wasn't expecting large buffers. Adjusting your TCP windows to a smaller value might help.

For DGD, you did exactly what I was going to suggest -- I used 1.2, and while I eventually moved to 1.3, but wrote most of my mudlib code under 1.2 and didn't use all the new 1.3 features that much.

Coming from abermud it could be really disconcerting, but you get a whole bunch more toolkit with DGD -- although the default inline text editor is ed :D

There's nothing quite so fulfilling as live-updating running code and seeing it work for the next person who logs in, with the main data persistent across the new build and everyone able to interact :)


Since I have no idea what I'm doing, here is the source directory, and the compiled 'driver'...

dgd-1.2-aux300.tar.gz..

It does run (on mine..) and you can login but that is about it. It's probably because I have no idea what I'm doing. But I'm sure you'll be able to figure it out in notime!


-----
And for what it's worth I updated my /usr/local disk again. I've added perl and a few other things (like less!). If you are compiling anything I also included a libm.a that is pure software so no more crashing ShoeBill out. But you'll have to relink at a minimum. I included some cgi stuff for the web server, and added a small HTML5 video. I also converted the XBM icons to PNG, as modern browsers can't render XBM.

I tweaked GCC to not produce any 68881 instructions, as it'd drop them in if it thought it should, without linking to libm possibly providing disastrous results.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 19, 2014 4:01 pm 
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Here's a good starter:
http://phantasmal.sourceforge.net/DGD/B ... ernel.html


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 19, 2014 5:37 pm 
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adespoton wrote:


That... looks like a lot of work, I don't suppose they have any shake & bake, or pre-made stuff?

:mrgreen:

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 19, 2014 5:48 pm 
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Well I was looking around for an updated SLiRP code, and decided to try to use the code from Sheepshaver, which actually imports it's SLiRP from BasiliskII.

I only had to make a few minor changes, and got it work on both Win32, and OS X.

So this is great!

Even better is that instead of sub 1k/sec transfers with lynx, I now get 22k/sec sustained transfers.

On my lan I can get 193k/sec from A/UX's simple httpd, while downloading from my MacBook Air I get 21k/sec ... I'm not sure why downloading from A/UX is 10x faster, but at this point I'm happy that it is substantially faster than before.

If anyone cares the source is here. It may be a little weird to compile as there is no global makefile. look for the build.bat/build.sh stuff or the appropriate Makefile in the core directory.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 19, 2014 9:23 pm 
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neozeed wrote:
adespoton wrote:


That... looks like a lot of work, I don't suppose they have any shake & bake, or pre-made stuff?

:mrgreen:


http://phantasmal.sourceforge.net/DGD/C ... DLibs.html

Melville comes with DGD, and is basic but fun (and useful)... it's what I used as a base back in the day. And Phantasmal of course is available on the SF site I've been linking to, and is a complete (but mostly unpopulated) drop-in MUD. The LambdaMOO one of course mimics LambdaMOO, but still needs some setup/an active community before you'll get anything useful. It also requires people to know how to write MOO (which I haven't done in 20 years).

Gurba is an already created MUD with a large set of default rooms, mobs, etc. But it runs on a custom build of 1.1, and isn't maintained anymore -- best to avoid that.

Phantasmal should get you a basic structure pretty fast where people can hang out, chat, send messages, build items and start creating a community. My suggestion is to build AuxMUD on top of whatever mudlib you eventually settle on (DGD or otherwise) and let it have basic bulletin board, chat rooms and private messages as well as the ability to create new objects. Then if you get some of us logging in, we can create stuff related to the history of A/UX and the Mac, and have a truly unique MUD experience :)


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 19, 2014 11:39 pm 
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Guys, I'm way impressed with your enthusiasm for Shoebill! XD Never would have thought that anybody would even use it. So I'm still fairly busy at work, and I haven't had the opportunity to do any major work on shoebill - nor even to modify the preferences gui on os x to let you enable/disable ethernet (choose a mac address, choose a tap device, configure ifconfig...). But when I do have time again, is there any particular area you'd like me to focus on first? I could work on finishing/rewriting the FPU. I could focus on getting sound to work. I don't think that I'll ever get the floppy drives to work, and nor do I want to work on them XD. But getting the serial port to work is probably possible. Getting regular Mac OS to boot is a *very* long term goal, but I could start figuring out what's involved. I'd certainly like to figure out why the monitor depth preferences won't stick between restarts. And I can look to see what's wrong with the keyboard on 3.x.x (~ and arrow keys not working). I could also maybe try to get the SCSI code working well enough to run that standard Apple partitioning tool... whatever it's called. I could also spin off the SCSI stuff into its own thread, so it will cause less lagging on spinning media-based disk images (I use flash, so I never notice a lag). Oh, and I could look into getting fsck emulated as a stand-alone (although it might be simpler and perhaps even more powerful to try to port BSD-fsck).

What do you guys want?

Edit: Oh, and I gotta say - working on the GUI is overwhelmingly my least favorite part of working on shoebill. If anybody wants to volunteer to take over the GUI, I would very very gladly appreciate it! I can work on making the core API a lot smoother and more powerful to that end. And of course, you can share in the limitless glory that is having your name on an A/UX emulator XD


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 19, 2014 11:55 pm 
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pruten wrote:
Guys, I'm way impressed with your enthusiasm for Shoebill! XD Never would have thought that anybody would even use it. So I'm still fairly busy at work, and I haven't had the opportunity to do any major work on shoebill - nor even to modify the preferences gui on os x to let you enable/disable ethernet (choose a mac address, choose a tap device, configure ifconfig...). But when I do have time again, is there any particular area you'd like me to focus on first? I could work on finishing/rewriting the FPU. I could focus on getting sound to work. I don't think that I'll ever get the floppy drives to work, and nor do I want to work on them XD. But getting the serial port to work is probably possible. Getting regular Mac OS to boot is a *very* long term goal, but I could start figuring out what's involved. I'd certainly like to figure out why the monitor depth preferences won't stick between restarts. And I can look to see what's wrong with the keyboard on 3.x.x (~ and arrow keys not working). I could also maybe try to get the SCSI code working well enough to run that standard Apple partitioning tool... whatever it's called. I could also spin off the SCSI stuff into its own thread, so it will cause less lagging on spinning media-based disk images (I use flash, so I never notice a lag).

What do you guys want?


Dude, I'm SOOOO happy with the ethernet support! It's amazing to have A/UX basically back in action!

Code:
fluffy.root # uptime
 11:46pm  up  6:04,  3 users,  load average: 0.00 0.01 0.01


6 hours of uptime!!!! :mrgreen:

Right now I think the biggest thing is the FPU. A bunch of programs see it and try to use it and it all goes wrong from there. I get FPU faults from weird MacO programs, and of course any new version of gcc.. although I may just have to rebuilt all of that crap from source.

I really dont' care about floppy drives or serial ports. I telnet it all the time and never noticed the arrow keys are broken, but ~ works fine from SDL.. I think the arrow keys are one of those 'multiple signal' deals like on the IBM PC, and not enough data is being pushed to the host... So far I'd say the SCSI support as it is, is pretty damned awesome. I copied in the Quake pak files, 52MB (well I uuencoded so even bigger) from sheepshaver onto a HFS disk, and from there into a UFS disk, decoded them and copied them into a new home... So a few hundred MB worth a disk traffic without issue... The only 'fun' thing IMHO would be something like emulating a tape, you know for backups... :lol:

but my $0.02 would be on the FPU.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 20, 2014 12:28 am 
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Does SoftFPU work in Shoebill? I used to use it on a 68030 Mac and it worked, albeit rather slowly.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 20, 2014 1:00 am 
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adespoton wrote:
Does SoftFPU work in Shoebill? I used to use it on a 68030 Mac and it worked, albeit rather slowly.


I doubt it, since there is a sort of working FPU, and it wouldn't do anything about the UNIX side.. I found a libm that is 100% software but the binary of gcc 2.7.2 embeds floats directly on its own, screwing things up.

Also there is 'diff' on A/UX but no patch!

Im going to begin the long process of building gcc, hopefully as a straight 68000 target so it wont throw any 68881 stuff in there.

I found out now that I got gcc patched up, is that the cpu level is set via the 'TARGET_DEFAULT' variable in the appropriate headder in config/m68k/<os.h>

TARGET_DEFAULT 7 is for a 68020 + 68881
TARGET_DEFAULT 5 is for a 68020 without 68881
TARGET_DEFAULT 3 means 68020 with 68881 and no bitfield
TARGET_DEFAULT 0 0 means 68000 with no 68881.

So Shoebill's 68020 seems solid enough, I'm going to build with #5 and see how that goes.

apparently the harder I tell gcc to not use inline 68881 opcodes the more it wants to use them.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 20, 2014 5:15 pm 
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Another day, another version the AUXrunner wrapper for Shoebill:

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/271 ... er-0.9.zip

What's new:

1. More error-checking and graceful handling of Cancel buttons.

2. An icon (two auks).

3. It should now allow you to drop a disk image on it and automatically (after a prompt) move the image into the disk0 folder as the boot disk. (As before, it also lets you drop a MacII.rom file on the icon.)

4. Also, if you prefer to use neozeed's shoebill build (with slirp networking), you can turn off the TunTap features in the wrapper by entering at a terminal:

Code:
defaults write org.wpdos.auxrunner UseTap false


Use the same command, with "true", to turn on the tap features again.

If and when pruten's official build uses slirp networking, I'll turn off the tap feature by default.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 21, 2014 3:30 am 
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so close...

Code:
./qwsv
Memory_Init trying for 16777216
Added packfile ./id1/pak0.pak (339 files)
Added packfile ./id1/pak1.pak (85 files)
PackFile: ./id1/pak1.pak : gfx/pop.lmp
Playing registered version.
gethostbyname says fluffy
IP address 10.0.2.15:27500
UDP Initialized
Netchan_Init()
Netchan_Init qport is 163259
Exe: 03:21:29 Sep 21 2014
16.0 megabyte heap

Server Version 2.40 (Build 5758)

======== QuakeWorld Initialized ========
FindFile: ./id1/server.cfg
execing server.cfg
PackFile: ./id1/pak1.pak : maps/dm3.bsp
FindFile: ./qw/qwprogs.dat
PackFile: ./id1/pak1.pak : maps/dm3.bsp
Illegal instruction (core dumped)


And it's full of..

Code:
inst_fpu_decode: unhandled instruction: unknown op=0xf231 ext = 0x4427 pc=0x00022b66
inst_fpu_decode: unhandled instruction: unknown op=0xf231 ext = 0x4427 pc=0x00022b66
inst_fpu_decode: unhandled instruction: unknown op=0xf231 ext = 0x4427 pc=0x00022b66
inst_fpu_decode: unhandled instruction: unknown op=0xf231 ext = 0x4427 pc=0x00022b66
inst_fpu_decode: unhandled instruction: unknown op=0xf231 ext = 0x4427 pc=0x00022b66
inst_fpu_decode: unhandled instruction: unknown op=0xf231 ext = 0x4427 pc=0x00022b66


I don't get why gcc is embedding all this 68881 one stuff in there, when I tell it not to. 2.6.3 and 2.7.2 do this...

Even perl throws stupid FPU errors.

Code:
inst_fpu_decode: unhandled instruction: fscc op=0xf241 ext = 0x000e pc=0x0006fdfc
inst_fpu_decode: unhandled instruction: fscc op=0xf241 ext = 0x000e pc=0x0006fdfc


I don't get it.

I'm tempted to start mashing in the 68881 code from WinUAE, but I'm not sure if I can mix GPL code with ShoeBill? SLiRP is at least BSD...

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 21, 2014 3:56 am 
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You're crazy neozeed! Quake server? XD

I've been peeking into how other emulators do the FPU. vMac cheats and uses 64-bit math for all the 80-bit registers, assuming nobody really wants the extra precision. mini-vmac might do something different. Basillisk II (UAE) seems to exhaustively reimplement the 68881/2 and 68040 FPU in excruciating detail.

I've been looking into using SoftFloat as the basis for a new FPU, but it doesn't implement any 80-bit trig/etc. functions. So I'd have to port them, probably, from FreeBSD, which looks like it'd be excruciating. For the mean time, I'm wondering whether it would suffice to create a simple vMac-style FPU with low precision. This would also allow Shoebill to run on non-x86 platforms, although it's not real fast on my i7, so not sure where you'd really want to run it.

As to op=0xf231 ext = 0x4427, that instruction doesn't seem to be listed in the mc68881 documentation. It's probably a version of an existing instruction that rounds to a 32 or 64 bit value. There are a bunch of fpu ops that have hidden alternate versions.

As to fscc op=0xf241 ext = 0x000e, that could probably be implemented easily... but I'd really like to just blow away the entire FPU and start from scratch XD

I'm wondering now if it would be better to *not* assert, but simply throw an illegal instruction exception, which might trigger the FPU emulator in A/UX, Mac OS, (or SoftFPU) to complete the op... Worst case scenario, the program will crash.

(by the way, here's old-vMac and SoftPC running together on A/UX, at last)
Image


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 21, 2014 4:05 am 
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Hey Neozeed - something quick you could try (and I haven't tried this yet) is just disabling the i-don't-understand-this-fpu-op assert in fpu.c

Code:
assert(!"unknown fpu inst");

and replace it with
Code:
throw_illegal_instruction();


That may make things better (or worse, I haven't even compiled it, let alone tested it).


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 21, 2014 4:22 am 
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pruten wrote:
Hey Neozeed - something quick you could try (and I haven't tried this yet) is just disabling the i-don't-understand-this-fpu-op assert in fpu.c

Code:
assert(!"unknown fpu inst");

and replace it with
Code:
throw_illegal_instruction();


That may make things better (or worse, I haven't even compiled it, let alone tested it).


I'll give it a shot. I just wish I could get gcc to stop embedding 68881 crap into the code. that soft libm seems to work fine for libm stuff, but it doesn't stop the embedded... I guess the alternative is to patch libgcc.....

I don't care about precsion at all 1.00000001 and 1.000001 is good enough for me :mrgreen:

I set this in my source tree:

Code:
    //slog("inst_fpu_decode: unhandled instruction: %s op=0x%04x ext = 0x%04x pc=0x%08x\n", fpu_inst_table[name].name, shoe.op, ext, shoe.orig_pc);
    printf("inst_fpu_decode: unhandled instruction: %s op=0x%04x ext = 0x%04x pc=0x%08x\n", fpu_inst_table[name].name, shoe.op, ext, shoe.orig_pc);
    //assert(!"unknown fpu inst");
    //dbg_state.running = 0;


The nice thing about not assert'ing is that it doesn't crash, but programs dump core, as things get screwey, but that is fine for now.

Also using sed I commented out all the slogs. a CPU benchmark gives the same score, but it does feel faster.

I guess the only way to find out for sure is to get more samples of people running shoebill to run the benchmark.

Also I don't know if you have access to a real machine running A/UX? I kinda need the output of enquire to get all the float information.. I wonder if that causes things to freak out with all my GCC attempts.

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 21, 2014 6:02 am 
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pruten wrote:
You're crazy neozeed! Quake server? XD


Maybe, but I thought it'd be very cool!

Image

And look at the upstream speed well on my lan, pretty good for so much emulation going on!

I don't know how playable it is on the outside, but it'd be interesting to get some feedback...

LINK.

I'm still doing brain surgery to GCC, there has to be a way to stop it from emitting 68881 stuff.. although carving them out is quite tedious.

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 21, 2014 7:09 am 
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Quote:
I don't know how playable it is on the outside, but it'd be interesting to get some feedback...


Performance is terrible ;-) On first run, sometime ~half a second video+audio, then waiting for 5/10 seconds or more, etc. But it gets there in the end...


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 21, 2014 7:16 am 
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I guess that is to be expected, it's 300ms from me to the VPS... Its more so amazing it works at all.

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 21, 2014 1:22 pm 
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Apple Corer

Joined: Sun Aug 25, 2013 3:25 am
Posts: 289
Location: Hong Kong
FDLIBM is more of a normalized libm than a 100% software soft float...... Oops! That's one reason why my soft float experiments failed

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