Trying to run Sound Designer (1985 Version) on Mini vMac (via OS X 10.11 El Capitan)

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Partial90sDude
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Trying to run Sound Designer (1985 Version) on Mini vMac (via OS X 10.11 El Capitan)

Post by Partial90sDude »

Hi I'm Jacob,

I made this account to get help with some audio softwares to be used via mac emulators. For this case I need your help figuring out how to get the OG 1985 Sound Designer to run on Mini vMac (running via Mac OS X 10.11 El Capitan).

I left a link in case you don't know the app. I'm asking for help because I want to get either a Roland S-50 or an Ensoniq EPS to mod up sounds on the OG app; 80s style! Despite that it's an emulator, still groovie and kicks ass!

Please let me know if I can do this
Thank You,
Jacob R.

https://www.macintoshrepository.org/2769-sound-designer
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adespoton
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Re: Trying to run Sound Designer (1985 Version) on Mini vMac (via OS X 10.11 El Capitan)

Post by adespoton »

It all depends on which components you're looking to use. Deluxe Music Construction Set, Finale, Sound Designer, Sound Designer II all work under Mini vMac and Basilisk II. HOWEVER, that doesn't include MIDI. If you're trying to connect to an external MIDI device, MOTU, or some other MIDI framework, it won't work under either emulator. In the long term, your best bet is likely QEMU-M68k, but that's got a LONG way to go before its Quadra emulation will support external MIDI clock syncs. However, it's the only place you'll be able to connect an actual serial or MIDI cable via USB and get it to talk to the emulator properly.
mcayland
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Re: Trying to run Sound Designer (1985 Version) on Mini vMac (via OS X 10.11 El Capitan)

Post by mcayland »

adespoton wrote: Mon Nov 15, 2021 11:55 pm In the long term, your best bet is likely QEMU-M68k, but that's got a LONG way to go before its Quadra emulation will support external MIDI clock syncs.
Just out of curiosity what is missing from QEMU's Quadra 800 emulation to enable this?
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adespoton
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Re: Trying to run Sound Designer (1985 Version) on Mini vMac (via OS X 10.11 El Capitan)

Post by adespoton »

mcayland wrote: Tue Nov 16, 2021 7:44 pm
adespoton wrote: Mon Nov 15, 2021 11:55 pm In the long term, your best bet is likely QEMU-M68k, but that's got a LONG way to go before its Quadra emulation will support external MIDI clock syncs.
Just out of curiosity what is missing from QEMU's Quadra 800 emulation to enable this?
Correct me if I'm wrong Mark, but QEMU's emulation emulates an RS-232-style serial interface for QEMU-M68k to connect to as virtual printer and modem ports, correct?

Whereas the actual computers used RS-422 (balanced RS-499) on the two ports, complete with the (shared) hardware clock chip to drive the signal timing. MIDI depended on this clock chip.

Or did you implement this part of the serial interface too and I just missed it?
mcayland
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Re: Trying to run Sound Designer (1985 Version) on Mini vMac (via OS X 10.11 El Capitan)

Post by mcayland »

adespoton wrote: Mon Nov 15, 2021 11:55 pm Correct me if I'm wrong Mark, but QEMU's emulation emulates an RS-232-style serial interface for QEMU-M68k to connect to as virtual printer and modem ports, correct?

Whereas the actual computers used RS-422 (balanced RS-499) on the two ports, complete with the (shared) hardware clock chip to drive the signal timing. MIDI depended on this clock chip.

Or did you implement this part of the serial interface too and I just missed it?
QEMU currently does a reasonably full emulation of the ESCC chip (see https://gitlab.com/qemu-project/qemu/-/ ... har/escc.c for reference) although it is missing some HDLC emulation which could potentially allow a QEMU VM to be used as a LocalTalk to AppleTalk bridge. The ESCC is a standard serial chip in that it has Tx/Rx FIFOs and a hardware baud rate generator and I don't see any mention of a shared hardware clock?

From what I've read MIDI Clock is generally managed as a separate track (likely a dedicated channel) containing timing information in which case it will get mapped from the guest application to an external serial port as normal. Presumably all that is missing is some kind of adapter to convert serial data to MIDI data and vice-versa?
Partial90sDude
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Re: Trying to run Sound Designer (1985 Version) on Mini vMac (via OS X 10.11 El Capitan)

Post by Partial90sDude »

Hello,

My intention using Sound Designer for audio samples and snippets only. MIDI I only use with Ableton Live and this MIDI editor I am looking for (again...). Quite a lush dynamic for modern MIDI goodies with the ancient audio sorts.

I don't know but I just enjoy using the audio stuff from the 80s and 90s. TurboSynth I love using a lot! It is my favourite synth software. Don't ask me, but I just love the uniqueness of how it came from DigiDesign like even Sound Designer did!

So within that matter, I feel this might help give clarity for anyone questioning if I am planning to use MIDI with these? Only audio sounds like samples, snippets, partials and noise. MIDI it might be a little more tedious for me if I wanted to really go for that, on top of doing it for audio sounds and noises.

I hope everyone is doing good. Quite amazed how many smart people there are here, don't mind me responding awkwardly too. My Autism kicks in when I talk about stuff or do anything I care about. :D

Please Have a Groovie Day!
Thank You!
Jacob R.
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adespoton
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Re: Trying to run Sound Designer (1985 Version) on Mini vMac (via OS X 10.11 El Capitan)

Post by adespoton »

mcayland wrote: Wed Nov 17, 2021 9:03 am From what I've read MIDI Clock is generally managed as a separate track (likely a dedicated channel) containing timing information in which case it will get mapped from the guest application to an external serial port as normal. Presumably all that is missing is some kind of adapter to convert serial data to MIDI data and vice-versa?
I seem to recall this is the case, single dedicated channel feeding timing information to both ports. And it is possible to use software-based timing on the channel, but the Mac also provided a dedicated hardware clock as well. I think if someone was using a standard USB to MIDI adapter, directed serial in/out to the USB adapter, and ran OMS in the emulator, it might be possible to ignore the hardware MIDI clock completely. I'm a bit fuzzy at this point, because the last time I really dug into it was back in the vMac days. That'd be simpler than attempting to convert back to MIDI on the host system anyway, as each host OS will have its own ways of presenting MIDI, and chasing those seems a bit much for a feature that will likely have such a limited number of users.
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Re: Trying to run Sound Designer (1985 Version) on Mini vMac (via OS X 10.11 El Capitan)

Post by Cat_7 »

QEMU currently does a reasonably full emulation of the ESCC chip (see https://gitlab.com/qemu-project/qemu/-/ ... har/escc.c for reference) although it is missing some HDLC emulation which could potentially allow a QEMU VM to be used as a LocalTalk to AppleTalk bridge. The ESCC is a standard serial chip in that it has Tx/Rx FIFOs and a hardware baud rate generator and I don't see any mention of a shared hardware clock?

From what I've read MIDI Clock is generally managed as a separate track (likely a dedicated channel) containing timing information in which case it will get mapped from the guest application to an external serial port as normal. Presumably all that is missing is some kind of adapter to convert serial data to MIDI data and vice-versa?
Triggered by that info I again tried to get Midi going over the modem serial port with both Qemu m68k and ppc emulation in Windows.
It takes quite an elaborate setup to virtualise all connections/components....

-Hairless midi bridges midi over a serial port
-Virtual midi pass-through provided by Loopmidi
-Synthesiser is the Roland MT32 emulator
-Virtual midi keyboard by VMPK
-Virtual com port pair provided by "Virtual Serial Port Driver pro"

On the Mac OS side I installed OMS, zterm and the appropriate FTDI driver to use -device usb-serial

With qemu-system-ppc running Mac OS 9.2 I can open a serial port using -device usb-serial.
-device usb-serial,chardev=com -chardev serial,path=com3,id=com

See the result in the screen shot here: https://surfdrive.surf.nl/files/index.p ... Gjac2eZskn

You see serial midi traffic into qemu-system-ppc echoed in xterm. You can send data from zterm over the serial port, but as that is not midi, hairless midi tells us it does not understand the data.
You can also see midi traffic from the virtual keyboard on the hairless midi bridge and to the synthesiser producing sound.
But I cannot get OMS to recognise the MT32 synthesiser. I cannot see it trying to send anything in hairless midi, but then I have no good understanding of how it should communicate with devices in the first place.

Trying the same setup with qemu-system-m68k with:
-chardev serial,path=com3,id=com3
This will also open the serial port in Windows and seems to reproduce the same setup. But any communication to the modem port by pressing a key on the virtual midi keyboard immediately hangs qemu-system-m68k where the data would show up in zterm when running qemu-system-ppc.

Best,
Cat_7
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